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Author Topic: Arizona Immigration Law  (Read 148 times)
Brownbear
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« on: April 30, 2010, 06:44:24 AM »

Any thoughts?
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"Some people are like Slinkies, not really good for anything, but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight a of stairs." Unknown
Flutemaker
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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2010, 04:11:10 PM »

Wait for the dust to settle.  There's a lot BS and half-truths flying around in the media right now.

You can read the text of it here: 
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf
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Flutemaker
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2010, 07:49:06 AM »

I've heard a few things.  Like to know what is really happening.  Deaths that occur to Arizona law enforcement officers is 80% caused by illegals.  If I were in their shoes, I would want something done about this as well.

Here are words from an Arizona Senator and reports that he has from various citizens:
Quote
This was sent to me by an Arizona resident.
None of this reported by the government run media.
Really good to know that the AZ "law" is so onerous.

I'm Arizona State Senator Sylvia Allen. I want to explain SB 1070 which I voted for and was just signed by Governor Jan Brewer.
Rancher Rob Krantz was murdered by the drug cartel on his ranch a month ago. I participated in a senate hearing two weeks ago on the border violence, here is just some of the highlights from those who testified.

The people who live within 60 to 80 miles of the Arizona/Mexico Border have for years been terrorized and have pleaded for help to stop the daily invasion of humans who cross their property . One Rancher testified that 300 to 1200 people a DAY come across his ranch vandalizing his property, stealing his vehicles and property, cutting down his fences, and leaving trash. In the last two years he has found 17 dead bodies and two koran bibles.

Another rancher testified that daily drugs are brought across his ranch in a military operation. A point man with a machine gun goes in front, 1/2 mile behind are the guards fully armed, 1/2 mile behind them are the drugs, behind the drugs 1/2 mile are more guards. These people are violent and they will kill anyone who gets in the way. This was not the only rancher we heard that day that talked about the drug trains.

One man told of two illegals who came upon his property one shot in the back and the other in the arm by the drug runners who had forced them to carry the drugs and then shot them. Daily they listen to gun fire during the night it is not safe to leave his family alone on the ranch and they can't leave the ranch for fear of nothing being left when they come back.

The border patrol is not on the border. They have set up 60 miles away with check points that do nothing to stop the invasion. They are not allowed to use force in stopping anyone who is entering. They run around chasing them, if they get their hands on them then they can take them back across the border.

Federal prisons have over 35% illegals and 20% of Arizona prisons are filled with illegals. In the last few years 80% of our law enforcement that have been killed or wounded have been by an illegal.

The majority of people coming now are people we need to be worried about. The ranchers told us that they have seen a change in the people coming they are not just those who are looking for work and a better life.

The Federal Government has refused for years to do anything to help the border states . We have been over run and once they are here we have the burden of funding state services that they use. Education cost have been over a billion dollars. The healthcare cost billions of dollars. Our State is broke, $3.5 billion deficit and we have many serious decisions to make. One is that we do not have the money to care for any who are not here legally. It has to stop.
The border can be secured. We have the technology we have the ability to stop this invasion. We must know who is coming and they must come in an organized manner legally so that we can assimilate them into our population and protect the sovereignty of our country. We are a nation of laws. We have a responsibility to protect our citizens and to protect the integrity of our country and the government which we live under.

I would give amnesty today to many, but here is the problem, we dare not do this until the Border is secure. It will do no good to forgive them because thousands will come behind them and we will be over run to the point that there will no longer be the United States of America but a North American Union of open borders. I ask you what form of government will we live under? How long will it be before we will be just like Mexico , Canada or any of the other Central American or South American countries? We have already lost our language, everything must be printed in Spanish also. We have already lost our history it is no longer taught in our schools. And we have lost our borders.

The leftist media has distorted what SB 1070 will do. It is not going to set up a Nazi Germany . Are you kidding. The ACLU and the leftist courts will do everything to protect those who are here illegally, but it was an effort to try and stop illegals from setting up businesses, and employment, and receiving state services and give the ability to local law enforcement when there is probable cause like a traffic stop to determine if they are here legally. Federal law is very clear if you are here on a visa you must have your papers on you at all times. That is the law. In Arizona all you need to show you are a legal citizen is a driver license, MVD identification card, Native American Card, or a Military ID. This is what you need to vote, get a hunting license, etc.. So nothing new has been added to this law. No one is going to be stopped walking down the street etc... The Socialists who are in power in DC are angry because we dare try and do something and that something the Socialist wants us to do is just let them come. They want the "Transformation" to continue.

Maybe it is too late to save America . Maybe we are not worthy of freedom anymore. But as an elected official I must try to do what I can to protect our Constitutional Republic . Living in America is not a right just because you can walk across the border. Being an American is a responsibility and it comes by respecting and upholding the Constitution the law of our land which says what you must do to be a citizen of this country. Freedom is not free.
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Brownbear
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 08:58:40 AM »

Not really sure how this bill is going to curtail any of this (especially if any of this article it true at all).
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"Some people are like Slinkies, not really good for anything, but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight a of stairs." Unknown
Flutemaker
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 03:43:29 PM »

That's a good point.
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Cetansapa
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2010, 05:45:04 AM »

SBWR,

 First welcome back and good to see you.

I grew up in Arizona and spent almost half of my life there. I have seen the kind of stuff that has been described in all of the reports. Now I do understand what you are saying, It also doesnot matter. It is a recognized border by both countries. Legal or not no longer makes a difference. With your logic one can argue that the entire country is illegal. Noone invited the whites to come here and take the land. Now back to the topic. I support the law as it will make a difference. There are illegals going back to Mexico already. That is a good thing. They can come here the correct way and I will welcome them with open arms.

   Now before anyone gets the idea that I just dont like mexicans, let me just say this, I am going to a birthday party for a mexican lady that my wife works with. I am even buying the fancy clothes it requires as thier parties get formal and highly envolved. Also I have always had mexican friends. I am not prejudcied. We have borders that are legally recognized by the entire world. We have laws that state how to cross them in a legal fashion. The afore mentioned party, it took the entre family 16 years to get here legally but they did it. They support this law.


Your post was good reading. I love a good history lesson. It is just that it no longer matters. Every country in the world recognizes the borders. States have the rite to protect them. This country is made up of 50 countries that work together. It is not one country.
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Flutemaker
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2010, 06:38:01 PM »

I think the media is blame for making this too much hype.  That fact is that you cannot be pull aside because you look Mexican - instead you have to be breaking some other law first.   
Obviously, if someone is breaking the law like speed, running traffic light, robbing a store, holding up someone at knifepoint, etc then that person is a lawbreaker and they are a threat.  If the threat happens to be illegal then they have broken another law, nice way to start out immigration by breaking many laws.  I don't want anyone like this running around and if the troublemaker can be deported then that is the way it should be.

I was in France this week and if I had decided to hold up a store or a bank or break some other law then my English language would definitely clue them in that I was from somewhere else and they would ask for identification - In my case it would be a passport.  If I were illegal then I'm sure that they would have something to say about that.

There are a lot of problems that aren't being dealt with properly on the Federal level, like the drug runners that have made many lives miserable there.  Some of the warning sign about this trafficking is over 80 miles in land.  And then there is human exploitation, many women taken from this country and get smuggled out, slavery (yes, it still exists in parts of the world).  (I will not go into details on this but it is rising problem) 
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SITTING BULL Was RIGHT !!
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 12:53:14 AM »

Flutemaker,...........thanx for the kind (re) welcome.  I would have staked my LIFE on the fact that you would have responded in the way you did  !!!!!!!

You're correct in the fact that the borders(legal or otherwise), Manifest destiny, Doctrine of Discovery and the Papal Bulls....are all bad things that happened in the past, and people could debate them..."till the Cows come home"

What I find (sadly) Hilarious about the AZ. "law" is the fact that the people who get hurt the most $$$$$$$ are    1. the small business person(landscapers etc.), and   2. the Giant Agribusiness's.  I could successfully argue that in both cases these folks are of a similar Political "stripe"  There's a very good reason that the previous Administration( and the US Army corp of Engineers) did NOT build "the Fence" from Brownsville TX., to San Diego, and that's because there was/IS a Lot of "winking and nodding" going on over the fence issue.  (Keep in mind,  from 2000-2006, that administration could have passed ANY law with out the faintest threat of a filibuster from the minority party (at that time).   The "AZ law" will be the beginning of the reason that the two examples that I mentioned above, will start paying...$ 10 bucks an hour for the services of the "legal minorities", as opposed to the $ 5 per hour  (under the table) of today.   I further predict that when (examples..1 + 2) are forced to pay "double digits", that the average local Caucasian........S T I L L...will NOT pick those strawberries(in the Blazing Sun) for 10 bucks an hour, and have to pay taxes to boot !


The AZ. law is strongly reminding me of the old adage..... "Be careful what you wish for " !!

For the public record, I'm all for STOPPING drug shipments from landing on the north side of the.. "border "


SBwR !!
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Brownbear
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 12:44:43 PM »

For the public record, I'm all for STOPPING drug shipments from landing on the north side of the.. "border "

Here! Here!
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"Some people are like Slinkies, not really good for anything, but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight a of stairs." Unknown
SITTING BULL Was RIGHT !!
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 11:08:31 PM »

Cetansapa,.........Forgive my oversight.  It's YOU who I owe the "Thank You" to, for my  (re) welcome !   Flutemaker is a fine fellow Also ! !
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Cetansapa
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« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2010, 08:06:26 AM »

Its all good. No offence was taken. You are forgiven......
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Flutemaker
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« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2010, 03:33:35 PM »

Quote from: SITTING BULL Was RIGHT !!
Flutemaker,...........thanx for the kind (re) welcome.  I would have staked my LIFE on the fact that you would have responded in the way you did  !!!!!!

Hmm, I think I've just been profiled!  Wink

Once again, I have to restate that the Arizona law only questions people who have violated some other law.  The President's scenario of some Mexican family out enjoying some Ice Cream somewhere and suddenly "You papers please" is not correct - it's a lie! 

Now, I'm going to "counter-profile".  Many left-wing folks like to bring up the word "fairness".  So, lets just visit that.   

Say Company A bids on a job and hires legal workers and dots the I and cross the T's and does every right.

Then Company B bids on the the same job only hires illegal workers and cuts on safety and ignores the law.   

Which way should real "fairness" play to give the job to the lowest bidder or to someone who repeated breaks the laws and even endangers others.  Those who pay no respect to that are likely to break other laws as well.

Maybe you think that the legal requirement of breaking some other law first will be ignored - but that is something that has be challenged in the courts.  The fact is that the administration wants to use this to gain votes from a group using their continued time honored system of divide and conquer.  I read comments on the Winston Churchill website on his comments on liberal vs socialism that were made way back in 1908 and nothing ever changes when it comes to politics and their strategies.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/speeches-of-winston-churchill/99-liberalism-and-socialism
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SITTING BULL Was RIGHT !!
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« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2010, 11:57:11 PM »

Flutemaker,....I find a few holes in your theory.
(for the record, in the A/B scenario, your correct.   "A" is the answer)
The V A S T majority of the jobs that the "border crossers" are coming for, are Agribusiness/landscapers, motel housekeepers and (non chain) food service.
The above profiled business's will hire the illegal Everytime, because to put it Mildly, they DO NOT want to have to pay a Caucasian American's wage, including the US minimum wage, if they can get away with it The laws of Supply and Demand are still very much @ work here. When/IF  "crossings" drop significantly, then....and Only Then will we know that the "Demand" is no longer there !!!
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OWG
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« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2010, 11:11:31 AM »

People cross illegally to get better wages than they can get at home, even if the wages are low.  The wages are low because there are employers who are all too willing to pay illegally low wages.  Like SBwR says, supply and demand.  Until the cycle is broken, the problem can't be fixed.  As to the law, we have to do something, but what will effectively address the problem, I can't say.
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Flutemaker
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2010, 07:34:10 AM »

Quote from: SITTING BULL Was RIGHT !!
Motel housekeepers

Many of the Motels/Hotels today are owned by foreigner, many of them (not all) do not respect the laws of our country.  As a result, the motel system is this country was an easy pushover as their rates could compete with other local motels and when those motel folded, they were easy acquisition targets.
The profit model in motel businesses aren't a whole lot higher than grocery stores.

Mexico has had poor people of native and non-native heritage for many years.  It suddenly exploded but they don't talk about the cause.

Back a few years ago, there was some trade agreements, NAFTA and CAFTA.  These agreements brought many jobs to inside of Mexico and immigration actually started to slow down.

What killed it was PFTAC (the Permanent Free Trade Agreement with China), Chinese were able to undersell even though the Chinese currency is valued half-way between US and Mexican currency.  Also, Chinese did have a greater number of educated workforce.  In Mexico, your majority of educated workers live in Mexico city don't want to move out into to areas of poverty where the factories were.  Some American Companies send American Engineers over there from time to time but very few want to live there.   As a result, a great number of these NAFTA factories closed.  Mexicans that had left their previous jobs for the promise of working at the NAFTA plants are suddenly unemployed.  As a result, unemployment exploded.   There is something that could be done about this on Washington's part, they could do something to help Mexico out and change the lives within their own country for the better.   We could encourage business to go to Mexico instead of China - keep better care of our own backyard first.  American Government though is now compromise, we are in great debt to China and when we do what they don't want then they pull on our strings - ouch!  Yes, Our country is now enslaved - thanks to a bunch of greedy wasicu politicians.

Look at the families being broken up by this immigration problem on the other side.  "Remittances" (money sent to Mexico by legal and illegal immigrants to relatives) is now the countries largest income source.   The Mexican Government doesn't want to stop it, some US politicians have been in trouble for hiring illegals to work at their homes - they don't want to stop it.  Service businesses that make trifle profits will do anything (even illegal) to get an edge on their competition, especially in a bad economy.  (BTW - many of the business that hire illegals are not American owned - they don't care)

What I said earlier about fairness is that someone is breaking the law to get a competitive edge.  What about fairness to other minorities that want jobs, I have an African-American friend who lost his job to two illegals that would work for $4 an hour under the table. 

Of course, fairness doesn't really exist in this world.  (Only in the world hereafter)

Just look over the horizon of what this could do to you even.

Social Security, the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme ever conceived.   When it runs out of money, a generation who worked will be sorely deprived (It'll probably be gone before I retire).  People who are working under the table and not contributing to the taxation are shortchanging your future.  I'll have more to say about that in another thread.

The problem is that the illegal doesn't stop being illegal at the border.  There are hard crimes like drugs and gangs that perform all manner of criminal activity.  There are the crimes against society, that is non-contribution, no taxes.  What fairness is there to an African-American or a Native-American in this country working hard in some restaurant making next to nothing when some illegal takes their job for a small amount (which is actually larger then you calculate "Net Income" compare to "Gross Income").  The citizen of this country trying to make it in hard times is screwed.  I don't like that.
Oh, and all this support to the illegals - what if it could have gone to CRR, Pine Ridge, Standing Rock - the forgotten people.
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